Saturday, 25 October 2014

Democracy versus the Individual

Posted in: Discussion | Policy forum

13/09/2010 2:14 pm

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Melvin Bone

Melvin Bone

Posts: 193

13/09/2010 2:24 pm

Which of these democratic outcomes has the higher justification?

Ultimately the National Government as they hold the purse strings.

Under what circumstance would an individual, or groups of individuals, be justified in taking direct action in opposition to the elected mandate of either local or central government?

What do you mean by 'Direct Action? Withdrawing labour or torching the council chamber?

Is there a difference in a representative trades union urging its members to resist the will of government and a media tycoon urging his readership to campaign against the government?

No. The main difference is how each 'urge' is reported...

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Paine

Paine

Location: Outside Housing
Posts: 19

13/09/2010 2:36 pm

"Society in every state is a blessing but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one; for when we suffer or are exposed to the same miseries by a government which we might expect in a state without a government, our calalmities are heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer."

Thomas Paine

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Melvin Bone

Melvin Bone

Posts: 193

14/09/2010 10:04 am

"Fools to the left of me, jokers to the right"

Stealers Wheel.

We can all just quote you know...

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Paine

Paine

Location: Outside Housing
Posts: 19

14/09/2010 10:40 am

Yes and how apposite of you to unearth a lyric roughly contemperaneous to Thomas Paine.

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Chris

Chris

Location: Progressive Solutions Required
Posts: 379

15/09/2010 10:19 am

In response to the first question - I would argue that the moral justification is with local government. More people voted for the provision of caring services in determining the make up of their councils than voted for economic restraint in determining the make up of the government. Indeed the services first argument can be seen as having achieved the greater share of the vote at the general election too, hence why we have a coalition government. This would imply therefore that the mandate being claimed for cuts is not as outright as suggested, thus PSRs main premise is incorrect.

The second question is an interesting one, especially since the recent police request to avoid cutting their budget so that they can enforce cuts by crushing protest in other services and sectors. So much for solidarity! As a nation we appear to lap up the media view that protest is bad, but then expect grass root movements abroad to rise up and topple elected regimes that we disagree with. We applauded, funded and supported the Solidarity movement, enabling Union freedoms to win victory over the oppressive and elitist Communist system of the USSR, yet condemn our own Unions for defending pay conditions and safety in the UK.

I would say that direct action is acceptable where to take no action would lead to the greater harm or detriment. Personally, I will consider direct action where I see financial or social harm against the majority, such harm against the minority where alternative actions can achieve fairer outcomes, or risk to safety or life.

For the third question, absolutely. Like them or loathe them a Trade Union is a regulated entity with a clear and published agenda, supported by its members. Where interests with government are at odds then opposing the government is justified. The likes of Murdoch, whilst successful and with a massive readership (happily recieving their free CDs, bingo-lotteries, and other incentives) has only his own business and personal interests. Such disproportionate wielding of power is at odds with democracy and risks peverting government.

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Melvin Bone

Melvin Bone

Posts: 193

15/09/2010 10:39 am

CW:'direct action is acceptable where to take no action would lead to the greater harm or detriment.'

There exists a subtle difference between terrorists and freedom fighters...

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Chris

Chris

Location: Progressive Solutions Required
Posts: 379

15/09/2010 10:54 am

and that difference is determined by historical context (the winners right the history) and who wins the PR war (or in current reality, who has the backing of Murdoch)

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Anonymous

Anonymous

15/09/2010 11:08 am

Poll Tax was introduced. trialled if you will on the Scots.

Direct Action that was advocated and all legal was to pay Poll Tax in copper coinage.  The costs of counting and administering outweighing the gain to the public purse. 

Every citizen, or subject of the crown as we are not citizens of the UK but only of Europe, has the absolute right to protest and should do that peacefully and as the Scots proved, intelligently and effectively.

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Melvin Bone

Melvin Bone

Posts: 193

15/09/2010 11:27 am

Hey Nonnynonny you are wrong again.

All coinage has 'legal tender' limits:

COINS:
Coins are only legal tender throughout the United Kingdom for the following amounts:

£2 - for any amount, £1 - for any amount, 50p - for any amount not exceeding £10, 20p - for any amount not exceeding £10, 10p - for any amount not exceeding £5, 5p - for any amount not exceeding £5, 2p - for any amount not exceeding 20p, 1p - for any amount not exceeding 20p.

The best (and legal) method I herd (pun intended) was a farmer who wrote a cheque...on a cow. It was in protest at bank charges.

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kass

kass

Posts: 629

15/09/2010 11:40 am

anonym,

if you think that the poll tax was abolished because the scots were clever, you might not really be hundred per cent right.

Since when governments have appreciated or even recognised the intelligence of their subjects, scots or otherwise?

If there were no riots we would still be paying the poll tax.

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Paine

Paine

Location: Outside Housing
Posts: 19

15/09/2010 11:56 am

Every citizen, or subject of the crown as we are not citizens of the UK but only of Europe

Lots of people still believe this fallacy, despite the words "British Citizen" being clearly printed in their passports.  "Subject" has no clear legal status and hasn't since at least the 40s.  We all call each other "mate" in this country because of our seafaring past - but we're not actually sailing the briny when we do it.

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Anonymous

Anonymous

15/09/2010 11:58 am

The limits for coinage dont apply if its paid to the Crown surely?

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Melvin Bone

Melvin Bone

Posts: 193

15/09/2010 12:24 pm

'Heynonnynonny 11:58'

The limits are absolute.

So don't try giving the Queen a quid in coppers ok.

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Posts: 104

16/09/2010 1:12 am

In response to being constantly baited (Did I mention your lot lost?) PSR is now advocating "direct action" because his lot didn't win. I see. Scratch just below the surface of a Spart and you will find a Stalinist. Clearly the electorate don't know what is good for them. Because his lot lost. The only solution? Violent overthrow of the Government and sod the electorate. Because he knows better. Everything I ever suspected you were has just been proven...

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Melvin Bone

Melvin Bone

Posts: 193

16/09/2010 8:57 am

PSR is no Stalinist.

Maybe a Trotskyist?

PSR would seem to advocate social revolution through working class mass action. Which is fairly Trotskyist...

Up the Tooting Popular Front.

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Sidney Webb

Sidney Webb

Location: South East England
Posts: 224

16/09/2010 9:59 am

Melvin is obviously the most astute poster of the month if not of the year. Please do not break out of your previous disguise too often though as it may rattle the munchkin wormtongues.

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Melvin Bone

Melvin Bone

Posts: 193

16/09/2010 10:34 am

Careful PSR or I'll rattle my sabre.

I prefer evolution to revolution myself.

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Anonymous

Anonymous

16/09/2010 10:37 am

ILAG has no justification for his comments above in which hes says direct action must be (a) left wing and (b) violent overthrow.

Is the 'Countryside Alliance' a revolutionary Trotskyte organisation then.  PSR has also not advocated voilence in and shape or form or has overthrow been advocated.

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kass

kass

Posts: 629

16/09/2010 10:58 am

People has all the right to direct violent action against any goverment who is proved to purposefully infringe basic human right of its people to an intollerable extent. And people have done so in the history of almost every country in the world and they will go on doing so in future.

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Anonymous

Anonymous

16/09/2010 11:00 am

ILAG is bang on, as usual. The crazed outpourings of bile and spite and drivel by Progressive Solutions Required have only one intention - violent overthrow of the government and subversion of the electorate's will.

PSR's lot lost. And if Ed or Bananaman wins then he faces at least 15 years yelling silly things, much as he does day in/day out on this site.  

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