Friday, 19 September 2014

How can you have Charitable Status and also be called Private

Posted in: Need to Know | Ask the Experts

28/11/2011 11:07 am

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PGriffiths

PGriffiths

Posts: 27

28/11/2011 11:10 am

Consumer "Participation" has been developed to allow the retention of  total control in the hands of the landlords

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Sancho

Sancho

Posts: 226

28/11/2011 4:00 pm

In the absence of any questions in your post, I can only answer the question in your title; "how can you haave charitable status and also be called private".

The answer is simple; how can you have charitable status and also be called public?

Name a charity that is also a public body.

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Bill Pearson

Bill Pearson

Location: Bacup East Lancashire
Posts: 21

29/11/2011 11:03 am

By the same token how can a Housing association be registeredas an Industrial & Provident Society and be run as a private company without it's so called members having the same say as a real I P S voting members onto a management committee who then select the officers to run it.

Does charitable aims in the company blurb mean they are in fact a charity, or is it just words on paper with no real meaning. Under the Housing Confederation model rules tenants on the board of the company have no loyalty to the tenants who elected them only to the company and who or what is the company without tenants? Without tenants there would be no company.

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PGriffiths

PGriffiths

Posts: 27

29/11/2011 3:31 pm

Bill want is IPS voting 

Sanco the regulator will have a new role on value for money in private registered providers its what the TSA is calling them but have Charitable Status and see what Bill wrote and I understood was classed has Public Bodies due to the Public Purse Funding

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PGriffiths

PGriffiths

Posts: 27

29/11/2011 4:28 pm

Sorry Bill should read what is IPS voting and do they not say Community Interest Company's. 

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Blondie

Blondie

Posts: 4

29/11/2011 5:41 pm

Housing Associations can be I&P - they fit within the definations which are prescribed by the FSA who regulate I&Ps - their behaviour and financial reports and reviewed by the FSA to ensure that they comply with the requirements annually.

To have charitable status is to have definated charitable aims and objectives and is usually in practice determined by how the HMRC view them froma  tax perspective.  They do not have to be registered with the charities commission to have charitable aims and objectives and hence HMRC charitabel status.

Housing associations are not defined and treated as public bodies from a legal stand point.

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PGriffiths

PGriffiths

Posts: 27

29/11/2011 6:32 pm

Blondie that not what the Law Lords said.  Its said was carrying out a public function and the fact that go and look at the receipt every four weeks of Housing Benefit Payment recd from the Goverment via the TAXPAYERS THE PUBLIC PURSE

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Sancho

Sancho

Posts: 226

29/11/2011 8:04 pm

Another question then, is Tesco a public body because some of its customers pay for their shopping with their benefits?

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PGriffiths

PGriffiths

Posts: 27

29/11/2011 10:10 pm

What Store people go to isn't the point.  Or how  they spend they benefit's. The fact is that Tesco doesn't get Public Funding to build its Stores

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Anonymous

Anonymous

30/11/2011 12:34 pm

Are Tesco customers not the public then? Who's funds are used to provide yet another Tesco store - and what about the discounted arangements they get from teh local authority - are they not public funds?

When was the last year Tesco paid a full share of taxes without offshoring and otherwise minimising their payment - are these not public funds avoided?

Private companies gain from the public purse, and fail to give to it - which is worse than robbery.

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PGriffiths

PGriffiths

Posts: 27

30/11/2011 2:58 pm

What Tesco get funding i.e. discounted arrangements  from the Local Authority. 

Do you have the evident to proof this please

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Anonymous

Anonymous

30/11/2011 3:29 pm

Ask you local council if they offered Tesco a reduced rate or tax-free deal to build their superstore (in the unlikely event you do not have one, ask the neighbouring council) if you want proof.

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Sancho

Sancho

Posts: 226

30/11/2011 3:39 pm

Just to be clear, RPs don't get given public funding to build new homes.  They are grants, but they are attached to the buildings so you have to give them back if you ever sell it.  It's not free money, sadly.

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PGriffiths

PGriffiths

Posts: 27

30/11/2011 5:03 pm

What do you mean like Northern Rock

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PGriffiths

PGriffiths

Posts: 27

30/11/2011 5:21 pm

Sanco please give us all some credit we all know what Grants our and its Public Purse Money from Taxpayers for the Housing Association to build. To be honest do not sell do they they "Merger". 

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F451

F451

Location: Europe
Posts: 189

30/11/2011 5:38 pm

Hi Sancho - does that mean that it is not subsidy, if it has to be paid back, but purely the government enabling housing to be built that otherwise would not have been built, and in return the government gains some control over the rent level and/or use of the home it enabled?

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PGriffiths

PGriffiths

Posts: 27

30/11/2011 6:16 pm

If you have no Tenants that you would have Social Housing and would be able to apply for grants would they

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Sancho

Sancho

Posts: 226

30/11/2011 7:48 pm

F451, I like very much your attempt to lure me into your non-subsidy trap.  In short, though, yes that is what I mean.  Any HA will show grant as a liability on their books.  

As has been proven plenty of times in the past, the Government can achieve the same aim by giving land away with a coventant that it remains social housing in perpetuity.  Why they don't do it now is beyond me.  

If you want me to say that affordable housing is not subsidised, I won't. The rents are still artificailly supressed at a level below what they 'should' be.  Equally, though, market rents are artificially inflated by the same process, which is why there's such a big gap between the two.

Personally, I'd like to see all RPs de-regulate, return the grant and simply become private companies with charitable aims.  The current two-tier structure of housing is all wrong.

PGriffiths.  If you think HAs never sell, you need to google the phrases 'DPF' and 'RCGF' in relation to grant.  

And, yes, if there were no tenants, there would be no social housing and no grants.  But there are tenants and will be for the forseeable future.  

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F451

F451

Location: Europe
Posts: 189

30/11/2011 9:07 pm

I was going to leave it at that, but you've raised another area that could do with clarity - artificially supressed rents?

The rents currently charged cover all the costs associated with the homes, and even generate a surplus - used for housing plus activities by RSLs and kept by the Treasury regarding LAs. How are the rents therefore supressed, and what else do you think the rents should then be paying for? Where do you see subsidy entering into the equation when there is none in the sense of artificially lowering the rent?

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Sancho

Sancho

Posts: 226

30/11/2011 10:32 pm

Yes, artificially supressed rents.  I can't really speak for LAs because the whole HRA system and various other arcane goins-on have clouded that forever, but RSL rents (even with the grant) don't cover the costs of management, maintenance, finance and major repairs.  

Are RSLs doing too much that falls into 'management'? - probably

Are maintenance costs too high? - probably

Is land over-valued? - probably

But the fact of the matter is that you can't develop housing for rent without losing money.  Most of the subsidy, sadly, now comes from RSLs having to undertake market development to make a profit.

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