to be precise the thread root is about a labour governement still not happy about how the benefits system work - and then it mentioned socialism. so this thread is about benefit reform within a socialist (either so-called or genuine depending where you stand) dimension... Terry Harding, given your stats are right (and we know what mauling criticism stats have come under recently) what would you do to all those women you claim are claiming incapacity and who have never worked?... And if they refuse to do what you would suggest they do how would you punish them? With jail terms? Denying them money to live on? Throwing them into the street and taking away their council/housing associations homes?... Well, I can guarantee to you that the consequences of any of those measures will cost to the state much more then you would save and you would have the streets - already bad as they are now - becoming no go areas with all sort of crime surging upwards... However you look at it you are never going to get a perfect solution... the only hope is in programmes of education and incentivations - - everything else is doomed to fail... And yet again, talking of benefit refrom, I would insist in demanding the state pay up to the needy all the huge amount of year after year unclaimed benefits in some other ways.