Friday, 25 May 2012

S21 notice given in advance of any problems

Posted in: Discussion | Policy forum

14/02/2012 10:55 am

mrkfm

mrkfm

Posts: 29

Hi All

Is it appropriate for a housing association to issue S21 notices the minute tenants move in purely to make it easier for them in the event of any problems arising and eviction proceedings being necessary?

This housing association have no record of ever trying to get someone out without good cause but not sure whether its appropriate/ethical?

Thanks

Mark

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F451

F451

Location: Europe
Posts: 181

14/02/2012 11:00 am

Think of it as a probationary tenancy.

Personally I find the practice distasteful but understand it in the context of the directions at court and potential delays when a probationary tenancy does not include a notice and tenants behave in a way that contraveens the additional requirements of their probation. Although I understand that the case law behind this is very slight, and indeed the promotion from probationary to full tenancy is rarely not mandetory. Thus the notice would just expire.

There needs to be a clearer status of the content of the probationary tenancy within legal consideration, in my opinion.

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mrkfm

mrkfm

Posts: 29

14/02/2012 11:34 am

Thanks.

As I say, I would not see this HA abusing their position so from this point of view have no concerns.

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F451

F451

Location: Europe
Posts: 181

14/02/2012 12:16 pm

There is also the protection that if the landlord abused the process the Court would still need to be satisfied there was a breach of tenancy. (the sort of finer point of law that escapes the average Tory Councillor in Wandsworth, for instance)

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Anonymous

Anonymous

14/02/2012 4:27 pm

The problem is that while issueing these notices might have some very limited use - they all contribute in creating a climate of tension and distrust between tenants and landlords, were tyhe great  majority of (decent) tenants feeling all the time on edge and the handful of antisocial tenants not giving a toss about them or anything else for that matter.  But why should the HA care for the majority of tenants being all the time on edge by these notices when it makes their life so much easier to evict the odd antisocial tenant every now and then?...

However to take note that tenants are not allowed to issue any such notices to HA staff when they step out of the line - it's all about having the tenants or clients on a leash. 

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Jono

Jono

Location: England
Posts: 54

14/02/2012 8:51 pm

It's a useful tool to protect the HA from tenants who do not honour their tenancy agreement. For those tenants who follow the rules, they will have nothing to worry about - why would the landlord want to evict them if they pay the rent on time, live well together with their neighbours and stick to the agreement they signed their name to? That would be silly.

If the HA doesn't serve the S21 and they have a problem tenant, it will take them longer, cost more to handle, result in the loss of more rent, and while this is going on, it deprives a tenant who would keep to the tenancy agreement from living there. If the HA doesn't get the rent, it means after its other expenses at will have less resources to spend on building new homes for people to live in - so the S21 has a lot of value to add. I'm surprised it is not used more frequently.

It has nothing to do with 'having a tenant on a leash' - this would imply the landlord uses the S21 to intimidate tenants - the landlord is not allowed to do this - and they would look very bad indeed if real evidence of such practices came to light.

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Anonymous

Anonymous

15/02/2012 9:20 am

14-02-12 8:51pm "....It has nothing to do with 'having a tenant on a leash' - this would imply the landlord uses the S21 to intimidate tenants - the landlord is not allowed to do this - and they would look very bad indeed if real evidence of such practices came to light."

So there has never been any evidenceof landlords intimidating tenants?... Or real evidence how you call it?... If it is useful for the landlord to use the S21 -why on earth it would not be useful for the tenants to have an equivalent S21 for when the landlord steps out of  the line?... If landlord never step out of the line have nothing to fear from it.  And should not be the client (tenant) to control the service provider (landlord) and not the other way around?... Only a fool or an interested party will not see this as one of the many old and new moves to keep all tenants up and down the county living in a PERMANENT state of intimidation,

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Jono

Jono

Location: England
Posts: 54

15/02/2012 8:38 pm

Hey Nonny Nonny

Careful - you are playing with my words. I asked if there was evidence of a landlord using the S21 to intimidate tenants - not if there was evidence of landlords intimidating tenants per se. As apparently you think the S21 is being used as a leash.

What would such an equivalent be Nonny Nonny? Something that takes tenants a short amount of time, doesn't cost much. How about someone comes up with...a Notice To Quit? Oh, too late.

There should be no control by either party over the other Nonny. We are all adults, and need to act like it. Tenants should be free to enjoy their homes in return for keeping to their part of the agreement (you know tenancy agreements do set out obligations on the part of both tenants and landlords), and landlords should enjoy the benefits of permitting you access to live in their home, in return for keeping to their part of the agreement. That's how it should work - no intimidation involved. Is that so foolish?

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Anonymous

Anonymous

19/02/2012 5:51 pm

JONO 15-02-12 8:38 PM "There should be no control by either party over the other Nonny. We are all adults, and need to act like it. Tenants should be free to enjoy their homes in return for keeping to their part of the agreement (you know tenancy agreements do set out obligations on the part of both tenants and landlords), and landlords should enjoy the benefits of permitting you access to live in their home, in return for keeping to their part of the agreement. That's how it should work - no intimidation involved. Is that so foolish?"

Yes, go on with your antitenant travesty... How many measures, checks, controls, etc. have been brought in for landlords to keep social tenants on a leash?...  With the excuse of fighting antiviolent behaviour and tenants not paying the rent, all social landlords have been transformed into a de fact police force against tenants.   And how many new powers have been given to tenants to keep in check their landlords?... None... A few years ago even the most  brainwashed tenants would pop up on this very website saying "I am happy with my landlord"... I haven't read any such comment for a couple of years.  It is indicative that even the most brainwashed tenants have woken up to the fact that the system is taking full advantage on them simply because they are powerless.

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Jono

Jono

Location: England
Posts: 54

19/02/2012 6:30 pm

Nonny Nonny

"Yes, go on with your antitenant travesty..." What was it I wrote that was both a travesty of justice and detrimental to tenants?

"How many measures, checks, controls, etc. have been brought in for landlords to keep social tenants on a leash?..." None? Perhaps you can give an example?

ASB - if you cause a nuisance to those around you, and non-payment of rent- taking the benefits of what the landlord is obligated to give to you, and not fulfilling your obligation to pay the rent in return for that, seems to me to be two examples where the landlord has every right to take action against you.

"And how many new powers have been given to tenants to keep in check their landlords?... None..." Tenants have a tenancy agreement - and a range of laws relating to it which is empowering.

You could always save, or advance your career and either move into private accommodation or buy a home. That way you would liberate yourself from your evil social landlord who provides you with a property, maintains it for you and probably does other things to try and improve your local community, all for a rent which probably doesn't cover all its costs or afford the building of new homes. 

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Anonymous

Anonymous

19/02/2012 9:19 pm

jono 6.30 pm "...You could always save, or advance your career and either move into private accommodation or buy a home. That way you would liberate yourself from your evil social landlord who provides you with a property, maintains it for you and probably does other things to try and improve your local community, all for a rent which probably doesn't cover all its costs or afford the building of new homes."... There you are, you impersonate fully the spirit of evil landlords philosophy (fat salaried executives and directors who have made a good career and good life out of social housing).  Make your tenants life impossible and blame them for paying you rent and tell them to move on if they do not like it... Nothing new, social tenants have had to put up with your approach for decades.

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